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#26 07-27-2003 20:18:14

Guest
Guest

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Sure, it's great to have a quality product but isn't it just as important that the company would be trustworthy too?  It's not just a "release" date, it's businesses making very important strategic planning on phantom dates that comes and goes with no thought of how the companies who depend on these dates are effected.

I, for one, would like to see a REAL date for a release so that I may be able make MY business decisions based on a REAL date, not just some random date that's meaningless.

 

#27 07-27-2003 20:57:30

EagleWolf
Member
From: Daytona Beach, FL
Registered: 07-27-2003
Posts: 979

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Nick next time, instead of giving dates just don't tell anyone but the beta testers, LOL

That way no one every is happy when they see the forum and a new release is out.


Thanks,
Chris
http://www.site_name_deleted.com
http://www.equivity.com - e-Commerce Website hosting starting at $5.95/month


Chris
<a href='mailto:webmaster@equivity.com'>webmaster@equivity.com</a>
-

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#28 07-28-2003 00:16:44

scienceman
Member
From: New York, NY
Registered: 07-28-2003
Posts: 28

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Dear Nick,

Honestly, I agree with this last comment.  Instead of giving erroneous dates and deadlines, do not set any date for the release unless you are absolutely sure that it WILL be released at the specified time.

To date, I have made business decisions that were based on dates you posted to the site.  In many cases, you expressed extreme confidence that the deadline will definately be met.  I have postponed updating my site with new products since I wanted to wait for the new release.  Furthermore, instead of setting up a virtual terminal with EchoNet where I would directly take credit card numbers and enter it into my browser at a later time, I decided to wait until the new release so everything could be done in real-time directly from my site.

Based on these decisions, I have actually ended up losing a considerable amount of money (many times over the value of the update).  At first, when the initial few deadlines weren't met, I wasn't really upset since I would prefer quality software over a rush job to meet a deadline.  However, when one deadline after another was passed (7 or 8 to date), my business was severely hindered based on decisions made around erroneous deadlines.

If no deadline was specified, or if a deadline was specified that went way beyond the time it would realistically take to finish the program, I would have made different business decisions.  I would have paid a little more to get a virtual terminal so I could start processing immediately, and I would have added a ton of new products to my site instead of waiting.  These are just two of the many examples of ways I have been hurt.

I do not mean to offend anyone, particularly Nick.  As you know from past postings, I am a big fan of you and your work, and I have been using your product for a very long time.  However, as a good customer, I request that you please do not set any more phantom deadlines.  When you post a date, I place trust in the fact that the software will be released on that date.  I hope that in the future, better thought is put into the posting of deadlines.

Thank you for your time.  Once again, no hard feelings- just constructive criticism from a friend.

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#29 07-28-2003 07:58:44

TerryA
Member
From: Sanford, Fl
Registered: 07-14-2003
Posts: 1322
Website

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

You all are getting your panties tied up in knots!

I personally do not understand the logic of waiting to do things like adding products to your shopping cart until the new version of CCP is released! An upgrade is an upgrade whether you have one product or 15,000,000 products in your database!

Now, if you are waiting for a new feature that is in the new version, that is different!  You didn't have this new feature before, and your business operated, didn't it?  Why isn't it able to operate now without it?  Is it just because it is something that you feel your customers can't get along without? Weren't they purchasing from you before?  Did they quit buying just because you found out that there was a new feature?

Don't go laying this guilt trip on Nick.  Things happen in business that you just can not predict.  I am sure that you never told someone a date for something and then missed it!

Let's cut Nick some slack so that he can get this release completed and bug free!  That is ultimately what we all want, isn't it?

Terry
terry/@hosttec.net
http://www.hosttec.net
We make hosting work for you!
CCP at:
http://www.caketopsplus.com
http://www.weddingringplace.com

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#30 07-28-2003 07:58:39

jaavi
Member
Registered: 02-27-2003
Posts: 121

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

>I, for one, would like to
>see a REAL date for
>a release so that I
>may be able make MY
>business decisions based on a
>REAL date, not just some
>random date that's meaningless.

It's not just you who is waiting, you are one among many.
If it was not for all the requested extras mounting up in the software the software would have been ready long time ago, you all want a good product with a cheap price and not willing to wait for it, I tell You, You can not have the cake and eat it too! Anyway why don't you guys just use the version 5.00 until this one is ready.
I am surprised that Nick doesn't even complain for all the naggings that he gets, He seems to be very  patient person.

Joey.

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#31 07-28-2003 08:42:42

jwhen
Member
Registered: 02-25-2003
Posts: 7

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

I agree with the problem of receiving phantom date from Nick.  I'm in the field of software development, and I should know 2 days before if I'm ready for the release date when I'm programming something.  I agree with taking the time to produce a quality product, but don't give people hopes and then kill it.  We all appreciate a quality product, but having to keep rescheduling our time because the expected release date is constantly changing without notice until the day of the release is a little bothersome.

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#32 07-28-2003 09:29:06

Guest
Guest

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Nick, take your time, it's better to have a good release with no bugs than to be rushed into early release and having to deal with the aftermath of pissed off people due to bugs. 
I'm patient and im thrilled to be able to have such an amazing software for such a low price.  Patience is a virtue.  I can wait for kitty kitty.
Keep up the fabulous work!

Frank

 

#33 07-28-2003 09:42:04

Guest
Guest

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

"not willing to wait for it"
"Let's cut Nick some slack so that he can get this release completed and bug free! That is ultimately what we all want, isn't it?"
"Maybe we can cut him a bit of slack."
"we value quality over speedy release dates."
"no one is going to complain that it took too long!"

I doubt anyone can say that we are "rushing" for a release or not being patient or not willing to wait for it.  The issue with Kryptonic is a continously dishonest representation of a release date that has no right to have been announced.  No one has asked for the product to be rushed or to hurry up and complete it.  What I've seen is people asking for a little honesty and stop jerking the users around.

So far from what I've seen, it's users who have already committed to the product who are complaining.  I wonder how many new companies who are looking for a similar system has decided to go with another system because they found that Kryptonic cannot be trusted?

As for the people who can't understand the lost of revenue, I'm wondering how much money my company has lost because of code modifications to increase sales being put on hold waiting for the release.  Or the addition of products.  Or even advertising campaigns on products being put on hold to see if the product URL may be different in the new version.  So yes, there are many companies that are losing revenues because of the misleading dates of Kryptonic.

It also makes me wonder that if we can't trust Kryptonic on giving us an accurate release date, how can we trust them when they say the code will be bug free?

 

#34 07-28-2003 10:09:12

Guest
Guest

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

I am also in business and i also can't wait for the new release but for now i have to stick to version 5 which is also a  great product - and my  clients find it user friendly and i understand that it might of been better for kryptonic to be more vague on the release date as to not get everyone's hopes up but people still would of complained and still would of bitched over it.  You can not please everybody - some always  complain and  dwell on the negative.  Get over it, it will come out soon enough.

 

#35 07-28-2003 11:03:30

scienceman
Member
From: New York, NY
Registered: 07-28-2003
Posts: 28

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Most people appear to have completely missed my point.

I do not mind waiting longer at all.  I am also greatful for all the work and time Nick and others have put into this project.  I would like Nick to take all the time he needs.  I don't care if this product doesn't come out for another few months.

My complaint is with respect to the perpetual posting of release dates that are incorrect.  This is just simply bad business etiquette.  When you tell a customer something, you should never go back on your word.  That is one of the first things they teach you when you take an entrepreneuial or business ownership / management class.

My dealings with EchoNet are a perfect example of a business decision based on erroneous dates that has cost me money.  Had I known the release date was going to be pushed back over 7 times and more than a month, I would have paid a little extra to get a virtual credit card terminal at the time.  However, since great confidence was expressed that the release dates in June & early July would be met, I decided to wait since Tiki is suppose to have real-time credit card processing with Echo Inc (which is cheaper).  If I had known that there was even the slightest possibility of the release being pushed back 7 or 8 times, I would have purchased the vitrual credit card processing terminal for a little extra.  Due to this business decision based on the bad release dates, I have lost valuable credit card sales which account for nearly 95% of all transactions on my site.

I would suggest simply listing a date that gives Nick more time then he will ever need.  That way, no business decisions will be based on these erroneous dates, and when the product is released prior to the posted date, everyone will be happy.

Nick- take all the time you need.  Just do not give release dates unless you are sure they will be met.

Once again, we all appreciate what it is you are doing, and understand all the work you are apparently putting into this project.  This is just one aspect of the operation that would best be addressed since I know I am not the only one who feels this way.

Thank you for your time.

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#36 07-28-2003 11:33:49

Guest
Guest

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Why is everyone complaining (especially why?) ?  So Nick made some mistakes on his release dates, so what?  If something came up that needed to be fixed, then it needed to be fixed.  As far as his company not being honest... how many other companies offer this type of software for less than $500-$1000?  How many offer upgrades for only $49.95?  How many actually give FREE, unlimited support on their message boards when they could sell it to you for $100-$200 a year?

This has got to be one of the best companies out there, so get over it.  If you have that big of a problem with them, then go buy another cart that costs that same amount as CCP and see how much you like it.  I owned many carts for the same price before I found CCP and I will promise you that nothing comes close.

-TG

 

#37 07-28-2003 11:59:26

swatmag
Member
Registered: 03-12-2003
Posts: 97

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

<font size="1" color="#FF0000">LAST EDITED ON 07-28-03 AT 01:00 PM (EST)</font><p>"Dishonest" is a pretty strong word here, especially in light of the value to price we receive, the instantaneous free tech support, the free mods and customizations on demand.

I agree that the actual date of a release is not an issue, but having to repeatedly reschedule can cause some problems on the customer end. I was one of those complaining with the last major release....I was new to CCP.

But I think we'll find that we're divided into two basic camps here:
1) Those that are new or fairly new to CCP
2) Those that have used the product and watched Nick work for some time

Those in Camp 1 are not "wrong" in their frustration (though the accusations are a bit over the top.) You just need to take it on faith from those in Camp 2:
This is a company that is eminently worthy of our trust. They are one of the most customer-centric orgs I've ever seen.

If Nick has erred, it's not on the side of "hype" but rather optimism and a desire to respond to everyone's last minute suggestions. Yeah, it'd be nice to have just one or two published delays. But if Nick's quest for perfection and his customer service mentality result in repeated delays, that's a price I'm willing to pay for the outstanding product and service he provides.

Wanna see the flip side? Just take a look at what Intuit or MicroSoft have become.....NOW who's trustworthy?
Rich

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#38 07-28-2003 12:04:18

webmaster
Administrator
From: York, PA
Registered: 04-20-2001
Posts: 19798
Website

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Thanks to everyone for both posting your concerns with release dates and sticking up for the company/program as well.  I fully understand that business decisions are being made and what is at stake for users waiting for the upgrade.  If the software could have been coded and tested any faster, it would be out by now.

Over the course of the winter when release change requests were starting to come in, we decided to target late spring for the release.  I started working on UPS Online Tools, the first major enhancement in early April.  At that time, we had just under 50 requests for changes, so our initial target release date was set for 06/20/2003 and posted on the site in late April.

Once the release date was posted, a flood of requests came in for changes.  This surprised me as we have a section on the forum where change requests should be posted at any time.  These changes ranged from minor feature additions like the reset reports function, to many major additions like the affiliate program, integration with 14 payment processing gateways, custom sale & discount logic, quantity based product prices, etc. etc. etc.

The current tiki codebase has over 100 feature additions, with over half of the requests for these features coming in after May 15.  As we got closer to targeted release dates, they changed as most of the features requests took much more time to implement correctly than initially expected.

An example of this is the Affiliate module, which initially was slated to provide tracking info and basic commission logic.  It was slated for 5 hours of development time.  When all was said and done, the module had full reporting capabilities, link info, multi-level affiliate tracking, max payout logic, full account logins and much more.  It ended up being so cool that I think we'll use it on clickcartpro.com.  It took every bit of 40 hours to code.

Kryptronic's goal is to release software that meets the current and future needs of the community.  When feature requests started coming in, releasing tiki without most of them could not be justified.  When tiki is released it will have every viable feature that users have requested to date.  It will keep everyone running through the holiday season.  We do not have a list of 'other features' slated for a 5.2 or 6.0 release.  Everything is in it.  I'm not going to allow software to be released with the knowledge of 'other features' that will be included shortly that will cost the community more money and time to implement.

That said, tiki WILL be released ON OR BEFORE 07/30.  Very little testing and documentation is left to do.  Again, I apologize for the delays, but it will be well worth the wait.

___________________________

Nick Hendler
Webmaster, Kryptronic, Inc.


Nick Hendler

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#39 07-28-2003 12:43:50

TerryA
Member
From: Sanford, Fl
Registered: 07-14-2003
Posts: 1322
Website

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

<font size="1" color="#FF0000">LAST EDITED ON 07-28-03 AT 01:44 PM (EST)</font><p>As a beta tester, I am in awe over this release.  I keep going back to the beta test site and browsing through the list of features that Nick has implemented and then to the beta I have running on my server to check them out.  The list is astounding to say the least!

I have used a lot of different shopping carts and this one truly pushes the limits!  I have also been amazed at the lack of activity in the Bugs section of the beta forum,  This is going to be one high quality piece of software when Nick releases it.  It WILL be worth the wait!



Terry
terry/@hosttec.net
http://www.hosttec.net
We make hosting work for you!
CCP at:
http://www.caketopsplus.com
http://www.weddingringplace.com

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#40 07-28-2003 13:08:45

Charles
Member
From: USA
Registered: 12-24-2002
Posts: 252

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

EVERYONE needs to give Nick a break.  When you are programming a piece of software you will ALWAYS have problems that you don't expect and those problems have to be fix and the time to fix them is unexpected aswell. 

I am not a beta tester but as many features that I have read about that Nick and the Beta team have worked on this is going to be the shopping cart that you are GLAD that you waited for!!! 

Keep in mind that Nick has put in SEVERAL HUNDRED HOURS into this program.  Just think if he only put 50 hours in and the CCP customers had to put in SEVERAL hours because of bugs and having to implment the fixs for them. 

By Nick spending about 400 hours (which is a lot of f*****g hours) you will get a product that is bug free you won't have to spend your time trying to report bugs and putting the bug fixes in.

Nick my hat goes off to you!!!!!!!
Keep up the OUTSTANDING and QUALITY of work you do so well!!!

Charles Knowlton
VERY VERY HAPPY CCP5 CUSTOMER!!!!!!!!


Charles

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#41 07-28-2003 13:18:24

Charles
Member
From: USA
Registered: 12-24-2002
Posts: 252

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

<font size="1" color="#FF0000">LAST EDITED ON 07-28-03 AT 02:19 PM (EST)</font><p>I would like to make another comment.

For those of you out there that have installed ANYTING on your computer you can't tell me that you didn't run into problems that you didn't expect!!! 

For those of you out there that haven't had ANY problems when you installed something on your computer hats off to you.

I have been around computers for YEARS now.  I know sometimes when I install something that I have ran into an unexpected problem.  Maybe it was a minor problem but it still was an UNEXPECTED problem.   

Just try to put yourself in Nicks shoes!!!!

Charles Knowlton


Charles

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#42 07-30-2003 11:29:29

Guest
Guest

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Is the release still going to happen today?  I imagine we will see a load test of it if you email all of us current users.  Are you going to use tiki for the upgrades?

 

#43 07-28-2003 13:26:08

Jack
Member
Registered: 05-25-2003
Posts: 105

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update


> I owned many carts
>for the same price before
>I found CCP and I
>will promise you that nothing
>comes close.
>
>-TG


That's my experience as well.
Jack

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#44 07-28-2003 13:23:29

Jack
Member
Registered: 05-25-2003
Posts: 105

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

>
>The issue
>with Kryptonic is a continously
>dishonest representation of a release
>date that has no right
>to have been announced.

"Dishonest"???

That implies malicious intent and I think you're off the mark.

"Naive" perhaps...

As are users who expect ANY software to appear on any date promised in advance.

Anybody who makes revenue-based decisions based on software development dates-future needs a reality check.
 
>No one has asked for
>the product to be rushed
>or to hurry up and
>complete it.  What I've
>seen is people asking for
>a little honesty and stop
>jerking the users around.

I agree that the net effect of the current pattern could be a feeling that you are getting jerked around.

But "jerked around" implies malicious intent, and I think that is baloney, if not hysteria.

Just learn that especially when doing strategic planning that is revenue-critical, no matter what any software developer says, the only two statements about dates that have any meaning are:

1: We are working on it.
2: You can now download the update at... {link}

>
>So far from what I've seen,
>it's users who have already
>committed to the product who
>are complaining.  I wonder
>how many new companies who
>are looking for a similar
>system has decided to go
>with another system because they
>found that Kryptonic cannot be
>trusted?

Ask that question of all of the other software companies out there.

>As for the people who can't
>understand the lost of revenue,
>I'm wondering how much money
>my company has lost because
>of code modifications to increase
>sales being put on hold
>waiting for the release. 

Don't ever do that!

Cuz even when a new release happens, it WILL have bugs!

It may even be mathematically impossible to predict every possible condition that every possible user might cook up.

Beta testers get the lion's share, hopefully, but my experience is that software integrity is achieved by successive approximations and continuous thrashing by users, who always think of a new way to stress the software design/implementation.

>Or the addition of products.
> Or even advertising campaigns
>on products being put on
>hold to see if the
>product URL may be different
>in the new version.

You may want to re-evaluate if this is ever a good strategy, especially with software that is not custom.

If it's custom software that you've paid jillions for, then you can have a penalty clause to cover potential losses.

That's just not realistic with software that is not custom, IMHO.

>So yes, there are many
>companies that are losing revenues
>because of the misleading dates
>of Kryptonic.

I agree that Nick should quit giving specific dates, and replace them with:

"In about a month or so" and "we're still working on it" is all we oughtta hear, until "Here's the download link."

Just do your planning based on the bird in the hand, which is 5.0.

>It also makes me wonder that
>if we can't trust Kryptonic
>on giving us an accurate
>release date, how can we
>trust them when they say
>the code will be bug
>free?

Quit kidding yourself. It WON'T be bug FREE. When you get to more than 100 lines of code, the probability that SOMEthing will not work perfectly under all possible circumstances starts growing (probably) logarithmically.

DON'T JUST PLUG THE NEW RELEASE INTO YOUR LIVE SYSTEM.

Run test cases until you are really SURE that the code will handle YOUR PARTICULARLY NUANCED IMPLEMENTATION before "exposing" it to the live revenue stream.

Nick, I don't think you're dishonest or acting in bad faith. I think you have "co-dependently" tried to give "some"thing to all of those users who are screaming WHEN WHEN WHEN? I'VE GOT MILLIONS AT STAKE!...

In the future, you may just have to stick with the "broken record" of

1: "In about 30 to 60 days, unless something changes."
2: "We're still working on it.
3: "Here's the download link"

And let them rant otherwise.

Sorry guys, if your operations are SO critical and SO much $ is at stake and you MUST have it yesterday. Then hire Nick or somebody on contract to get it done on a custom basis, with damages for failure to meet the date...

Just my opinion... :-)
Jack

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#45 07-28-2003 13:58:32

Guest
Guest

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Gentlemen and Ladies all,

I for one do not understand what all the fuss is about. If you think you have lost money because of software setbacks then I suggest you look into your crystal ball and see what your bottom line will be this year just to make sure your going to make your $100.00 back.

This is no more of an inconvienance than dropping your ice cream cone on a hot day! Depending on ANY software to be released on a particular day is insane. Let's face it, if you were really pissed you would have gone elsewhere by now. The fact remains that although there have been setbacks in the release date you are still here because you believe in this software too!!!

I for one will wait until it is done then set it up and test it for myself to make sure it works the way I want it to and I understand what it does. Then I will customize it. This will probably take weeks because I am busy running my business.

I never met Nick, but silly accusations of "dishonest" and "jerking you around" are about as unprofessional as it gets. Let the man do his work in peace. You can reap the benefits when it's done.

Joe Ohlandt

 

#46 07-28-2003 14:31:12

scienceman
Member
From: New York, NY
Registered: 07-28-2003
Posts: 28

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

<font size="1" color="#FF0000">LAST EDITED ON 07-28-03 AT 03:33 PM (EST)</font><p>I agree with the last comment.  The terms 'dishonest' or 'jerking customers around' is too harsh. 

However, my reason for commenting is simply to improve the company and make it the best it can be.  This minor deficiency is probably the easiest thing to fix, but yet it is having a large impact on the PR image of the company.  I can assure Kryptonic that you have lost customers due to the repeatedly passed deadlines- some of which are my clients.  The simple act of not setting specific deadlines could have prevented this problem.

I don't see why various postings have been so defensive about this issue.  Just answer this question- do you think the company's image has in any way benefitted from missing 7 or 8 deadlines?

As a long time user, this issue is a major concern to me, and I don't believe it appropriate to try and 'sweep it under the rug', particularly in future releases.  This is an issue that can easily be dealt with, and will benefit Kryptonic's PR not only by saving already vested companies valuable time and money, but making new customers have faith that the service they receive from this company is unparalleled by any other.

Good luck to all.  I look forward to Tiki!

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#47 07-28-2003 15:49:04

Todd
Member
From: Kitty Hawk, NC
Registered: 04-01-2003
Posts: 553
Website

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

If everyone keeps putting their two cents in....

we'll end up with about a buck. smile




Thought the string could use a laugh.


there's more than one way to...



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#48 07-28-2003 16:07:38

Charles
Member
From: USA
Registered: 12-24-2002
Posts: 252

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

LOL


Charles

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#49 07-28-2003 18:24:12

nev100
Member
From: Allentown, PA
Registered: 09-06-2003
Posts: 49
Website

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Question or suggestion,
  Is their away to setup a coupon code that would shut off charging customers for shipping if we wanted to offer a selective group a free shipping promotion??

Nevin

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#50 07-30-2003 12:32:14

webmaster
Administrator
From: York, PA
Registered: 04-20-2001
Posts: 19798
Website

Re: CCP 5.1 (Tiki) - Release Update

Tiki will be released later today.  I'm working right now on wrapping up the final pacakge.  We will be upgrading clickcartpro.com before launch.  Stay tuned...

___________________________

Nick Hendler
Webmaster, Kryptronic, Inc.


Nick Hendler

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