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#1 02-08-2005 15:34:55

webmaster
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Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

In response to several user requests and *seeing the light* after reviewing various texts on the subject...

(Drum Roll Please)

The decision has been made to make CCP6 (zuma core + related packages & modules) fully XHTML Transitional compliant.

This means we will be using full CSS for all design aspects and only nesting tabular data in tables.

A more detailed update on these developments will be forthcoming (either later today or tomorrow).  I've been stripping all old HTML code out of the core for three weeks now and doing validation tests almost daily...


Nick Hendler

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#2 02-08-2005 17:38:22

thekiko
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

Congrats Nick.... this will be a huge boon to all CCP users and a remarkable advancement for CCP.


TheKiko

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#3 02-08-2005 19:43:29

dtwg
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

Is it too late in the game to suggest reading "Designing with Web Standards" by Jeffrey Zeldman? (If you haven't already...)

-Dave

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#4 02-08-2005 21:04:23

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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

I read the book cover to cover in three days almost four weeks ago.   I've been ripping apart the core ever since.  This book is the main reason for the change in format.  He spoke to every point of which was a concern of mine.  I have suggested the book to several others who have since ordered it. 

I highly recommend it to anyone that's still using old HTML to satisfy MSIE3/4 and NS3/4 quirks as I have.  I can say with certainty that every CCP5.1 and lower site will render properly (provided layouts were coded correctly) all the way back to 3.0 browsers - including the dreaded MSIE3 and NS4.  I can also say with certainty that this isn't necessary any more and gives up a lot of design based control in an effort to make this exact rendering possible.

The real selling point for me on XHTML + CSS is the ability to go cross platform (Web Browsers, PDAs, Mobile Phones, Screen Readers for the Blind, Text Browsers like Lynx) seamlessly with the same standards compliant code.

I took offense initially to users saying that the HTML used in CCP was not standards compliant - because it is.  It's HTML 4.01 compliant.  Just because it's not compliant with respect to the XHTML standard doesn't mean it's bad.  Coding it in XHTML makes it all that much better, though.

### Here's a link to the book if anyone else is interested:

Designing with Web Standards
by Jeffrey Zeldman
ISBN: 0735712018
Amazon:

If I had to pick one book on XHTML + CSS - this is the one.  It doesn't go very deep into CSS - that's what Eric Meyer's books are for.  It does an awesome job of talking to why we did things the way we did back in the late 90's and why we don't have to any more.  It also does a great job of detailing any known pitfalls with both new and old browsers.

### Other books on the subject:

Eric Meyer on CSS: Mastering the Language of Web Design
by Eric A. Meyer
ISBN: 073571245X
Amazon:

This book is project based and looks to be a good desk reference.  I will be using it to code certain portions of CCP6 by example.  It really isn't a good sit down and enjoy book like Zeldman's.

HTML & XHTML: The Definitive Guide, Fifth Edition
by Chuck Musciano, Bill Kennedy
ISBN: 059600382X
Amazon:

This book sucks if you are interested in XHTML.  The first lot of chapters is devoted to HTML and only the last two touch on XHTML and not very well.  This book barely addresses standards and is good if you want a $26.00 paperweight.

Cascading Style Sheets: The Definitive Guide
by Eric Meyer
ISBN: 1565926226
Amazon:

Another good book by Eric Meyer (AKA the Pope of CSS).  This one is written in good O'Reilly fashion as a reference more than a book.  It covers CSS1 and CSS2 and makes distinctions between the two.  It's a good tag and formatting reference but I would not want it to be my only book on the subject.


Nick Hendler

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#5 02-08-2005 21:18:23

webmaster
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

Also, just saw the post on MSN.  For a good laugh, take a look at:




In a non-compliant browser like Netscape 4.0.  MSN looks like an old school 1994 style site (pre images & tables) with a note at the top:



Why does MSN look like this?

Your browser cannot find our style and presentation information. You’re welcome to use the page as is, or upgrade your browser to its latest version.  If you’re using Microsoft Internet Explorer, go to the Microsoft Internet Explorer website to install the latest version. If you are using another browser, see your browser’s website for more information.

And ESPN goes one step further:



We've redesigned ESPN.com!

Some of the features you will enjoy include:

(1) A faster loading front page
(2) More interactive features
(3) A striking new look

There's only one catch...

You must be using a standards-compliant web browser.

Your current browser is: Netscape 4.x or less.

98.4% of our audience uses a standards-compliant web browser, but you appear not to be using one. We want to help you remedy this situation and improve your experience on ESPN.com and the rest of the internet.

Click one of the download links on the left to freely upgrade your browser, or read on for more information on why you got to this page.

Why am I here?

The Short Answer:

Web browsers become obsolete over time. The simplest way to think about it is to remember when everyone stopped using cassettes and started using CDs. People made the move to CDs because they provided better sound, were more convenient, and eventually artists stopped releasing cassettes, instead only releasing CDs. Since only about 1.6% of the visitors to ESPN.com use an outdated browser (mainly Netscape 4), we’ve decided it’s time to “stop releasing cassettes” and roll out a faster loading, sleeker, and more informative ESPN.com. Over the next year or so, you will notice other major sites upgrading as well.

Just like making the move from cassette to CD, updating your current browser may be a difficult decision to make... although downloading a browser is free and you can do it right here. We want to help make this as easy as possible for you so we’ve checked your system and provided some links on the upper left side of this page for you to download a FREE new browser. So click a link on the left, download a new web browser, install it, and try it out... we’re sure you’ll be happier with your internet experience because of it.

--- link to long answer with the following text ---

Why am I here?

The Long Answer:

When web browsing became popular in the mid 90s, several companies began battling to develop the most dominant web browser on the market. Since there was no standard on what a browser should really look and act like, these companies all released their own browsers using proprietary methods, and the end result was a slew of browsers which were barely compatible with each other. As a result, anyone who wanted to run a web site often had to write 5 or 6 different versions of each page on their site, just to make sure it worked in all of these proprietary browsers. As a user, you may not realize this is going on, but the end result is a page which is not necessarily presented as it *should* be but rather as a "lowest common denominator" for all the browsers it must be viewed on.

For the last several years, companies (including ESPN) have supported all  of these older browsers because large percentages of their audience still used them. The results were heavier pages which took longer to load, longer lead-times on developing and publishing new content, and all sorts of complicated JavaScript to send different people different versions of each page.

Finally, along came a set of open web standards for everyone to use. For the past couple of years, every major web browser released has been built around a set of open standards designated by the World Wide Web Consortium, a non-profit organization charged with overseeing the continuing development of the web. What this means is that one piece of code now looks the same on every modern browser, whether it be Netscape, Internet Explorer, Safari, Opera, or others. The only catch is, the majority of users actually have to *use* these modern browsers before sites like ESPN can present content which is optimized for them.

So when we began talking about redesigning the ESPN.com front page, the first thing we did was look at our audience. Our numbers show that about 1.6% of our audience still uses non standards-compliant browsers, and most of that 1.6% uses Netscape 4, which is a non standards-compliant 5-year old browser and is easily, and freely, upgradeable to Netscape 7 (a very nice browser).

So we said to ourselves, “If we can produce twice the amount of content, create faster loading pages, and offer more features to 98.4% of our audience at a cost of having to tell less than 2% of our audience to freely upgrade their browser, then well, that’s a pretty easy decision.” If it was more like 10%, then perhaps we wouldn’t have made the same decision, but the fact is, most people have already upgraded and most of the remaining 1.6% simply don’t realize they are using an outdated browser.

We’d like to make perfectly clear that we are not trying to get you to use Microsoft browsers, Netscape browsers, Apple browsers, or Opera browsers. This is not about telling you what brand of browser to use. It is only about alerting you to the fact that each of the companies above, plus
a few more, makes a modern, standards-compliant browser which you can easily (and freely) switch to using the links on the upper left side of this page.

Over the next year or so, you will begin to notice more and more sites concentrating their efforts on supporting open standards and dropping support for older non-compliant browsers. You are free to consider us one of the first, and you may also consider this an invitation from your friends at ESPN to get on board. If your systems administrator has you locked into using a non standards-compliant browser like Netscape 4, then feel free to send him or her to this page. They already know about this issue and we feel strongly that it is in their best interest to get you upgraded.

As an influential site on the internet, ESPN is proud to help further the cause of open standards on the web. Since you are eventually going to upgrade your browser anyway, why not use this as your opportunity? We’re sure you’ll enjoy the new ESPN, as well as every other site on the web a lot more because of it.

Obviously ESPN is taking standards as seriously as we are in the new core...


Nick Hendler

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#6 02-09-2005 07:21:43

dtwg
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

Thanks for the bibliography! I think the Meyer book is a little too heavy on specific examples, making it difficult to extract what you need. But worth a read.

Here is a good site that also has quite a bit of depth regarding css. I think it is especially helpful in describing css browser bugs (even in current version browsers) and workarounds.


Dave

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#7 02-09-2005 18:30:35

CityWebSystems.com
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

Woohoooo! That is the best news I have heard all year!  smile

Thank you for taking our suggestions to heart and looking into this seriously. Not only is it a win for our users but also for us designers. It will be a huge feather in our cap to be able to promote CCP as XHTML and CSS compliant. Perhaps when it is released a press release should be submitted to standards watchdog organizations like the Web Standards Project  and others.

Again... thank you, thank you, thank you Nick! 

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#8 02-09-2005 18:57:33

morvak
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css



Would you recommend those books to the XHTML and CSS n00b to learn about stuff as well? Or is that hardcore stuff?

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#9 02-10-2005 08:49:48

dtwg
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

I would definitely get Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards. Not so much for a tutorial, just a great overview on where we've been, where we are, and where we're going.

I think Eric Meyer on CSS: Mastering the Language of Web Design is pretty hardcore.

There are a lot of good resources on the web for learning xhtml and css:







HTH,

Dave

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#10 02-10-2005 08:55:32

webmaster
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css



I would definitely get Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards. Not so much for a tutorial, just a great overview on where we've been, where we are, and where we're going.

I'd have to agree here - with the additional qualification that if you're not technical the second half of the book might be a bit deep.  I'd recommend the book to anyone with a site on the web, though.  It will help anyone from a seasoned developer to the boss that just wants to understand what their developer is saying and why they're saying it.


Nick Hendler

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#11 02-11-2005 05:38:27

Charles
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Registered: 12-24-2002
Posts: 252

Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

This all sounds really cool.  I can't wait to get Zuma and check out the XHTML in it.  I don't know anything about XHTML but I will be sure to check out the books that yall have suggested.


Charles

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#12 02-11-2005 16:22:33

steveblueradio
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

"Designing with Web Standards" by Jeffrey Zeldman is a very good book, I bought it about two weeks ago, its not to heavy going, and everyone should give it a read.

also these are good for helping to get your site XHTML Transitional compliant:




And here is a great website that uses XHTML and CSS to great effect:



Cheers
Steve


I'm Gene Hunt, Your DCI, And it's 1973, Nearly Dinner Time, I'm havin hoops........

Cheers,
Steve
-------------------

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#13 04-14-2005 15:10:43

acetracer
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Registered: 02-20-2004
Posts: 48

Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

smile

That's all I can say. You just saved me a lot of money and -a lot- of work Nick, thank you. And congratulations, I knew you would "get it", and understand the benefits when you did. 

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#14 04-17-2005 22:04:59

Todd
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

LOL!   :-)

I have been away for a few weeks and have not had any time to check in.  Now, I do and....  WOW!!!  Big news!  This is great.

I read two books on web standards.  Zeldmans and Meyers.  They seem like the two that get recommended the most.

My feelings on standards are mixed although I am thrilled to see CCP taking this step. The reason I remain cautious about standards is this.  I don't think its reasonable to believe that a majority of content on the Internet will ever be standards compliant. Why? There are just too many mom and pops web designers who put stuff together with Frontpage and copying and pasting code from sites they like.

For the above reason, browsers will always have to render lousy code correctly or else the people using the browsers will think the browser is faulty.  So you can be sure MS is always going to make sure their browser is very 'forgiving' when it comes to lousy code.  Browsers that are not as 'forgiving' will not be viewed as ready for primetime by the general Internet surfing public... so they will find one that just works with most websites as opposed to using one that only works with compliant websites.

So you have a catch 22 situation.  The mom, pops, and 9 year old down the street who are building websites will test their non-compliant code in the popular browser they use... the code will render just fine since the browser is 'forgiving' and they will publish their ugly code thinking its fine.

So even if all professional web developers on the whole planet produce clean and compliant code, the great majority of the Internet will still be produced by the neighbors' kid down the street.  Professional developers are the minority much the same that professional car washing services will always be a minority... because so many people know how to wash their own cars to a degree that satisfies them. (Perhaps a cheesey illustration... but seems to work smile )

To me the benefit of 'standards' are that they become 'standards'.... duh?  However, how can it become a 'standard' if the browsing tools we use don't require standardized code?  In other words... it seems like a battle that can't be won.

However, I would prefer to be wrong about the above analogy... and perhaps I will be proven wrong someday soon.

That being said... great decision Nick.  XHTML standard code will be a huge selling point for thousands of developers that are 'standards oriented' and are looking for a e-commerce solution that supports those standards.

As a side note... my browser of choice is Firefox and has been for sometime now.


there's more than one way to...



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#15 04-19-2005 11:02:07

CityWebSystems.com
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Re: Ccp6: Xhtml + Css

Todd,04/17/2005 10:04:59 PM wrote:

Browsers that are not as 'forgiving' will not be viewed as ready for primetime by the general Internet surfing public... so they will find one that just works with most websites as opposed to using one that only works with compliant websites.

Hey Todd!

Good post... just an aside here. I'm not aware of any browser that only supports standards compliant sites and chokes on the rest.  (my favorite, and yours), , and even  has multiple render modes. Standards compliance mode is used when a valid DOCTYPE is declared at the beginning of a document. Quirks mode is used when a DOCTYPE is not specified. This is called  and in this way the browser can support both the old crap and the good stuff.

As for the battle being impossible to win... I think to some extent you're right. We'll never have 100% of the sites on the web be standards compliant. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be leaders in the field and encourage the use of best practices. Standards have become standards for many reasons. Many of those reasons have big business benefits. The more people become aware of those benefits, the more they will use standards. Using a standard for the standard's sake is ok. Using a standard for any of the numerous benefits that come from using standards just makes sense.

Again... good post! smile

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