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#426 07-11-2009 00:16:03

hdouglas
Member
Registered: 06-12-2008
Posts: 17

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

As a developer who has used CCP6 but also has extensive experience of Joomla, I await this release along with everyone else, with the utmost bated breath. The Joomla integration makes it very exciting, but knowing that product as well as I do, I have some concerns.
To the uninitiated user, Joomla is a great CMS which has proved its popularity and resilience. It is a very extensible system which allows add on components to be developed and work "within Joomla" the most popular cart software for this environment VirtueMart is an example of this.

However, from Joomla 1.5 (released Jan 2008) the system was completely re-architected to work on the "Joomla Framework" rather than being a CMS which could have addons, Joomla now is a development platform of which the CMS is an application. This is something which will become more apparent with the subsequent and also immenent release of Joomla 1.6 - the next major release.

What I wonder, is how this integration has been designed.

Has CCP be written ontop of the Joomla framework? (I suspect not) as it would effectively replace the Kryptronic engine. Or has it been built as a stand alone which some glue which allows it to be installed and work with Joomla. A bit like phpBB3 which is often used in Joomla sites as a bulletin board. Here there are many connectors which offer integration of user databases and permissions.

The main areas of interest in the Joomla / CCP7 system seem to be a close coupling of the user databases, so a user can login to either CCP or Joomla and be automatically know and logged into the other. This is a major advantage, but I worry, in this respect. One of the weaknesses of Joomla 1.5 is the handling of user permissions which follows a rather flat structure. Joomla 1.6 it slated to offer a much more extensive user environment (ACL) where users can be built into groups and multiple levels of permissions created which work across separate components. The big question is, will CCP7 support this and in building the integration have there been any core hacks to the Joomla side which will be an issue during upgrades? (The joomla code is typically updated every 8 weeks or so with minor point releases).

The other area of interest is the integration of templates, in my opinion a weaker area of CCP6 (when compared to the capabilities of Joomla 1.5) I await with interest to see how this will work in practice, but it is the most exciting area of the integration. Again though, how will this work with the update of Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 1.6?

All in all, I await CCP7 with a lot of excitement, in the Joomla arena, Virtuemart is a standard but one that is limited in many ways. Perhaps it is unfair to make too much of a comparisson, Virtuemart being an open source project and CCP a paid for application. There are significant differences in their capabilities although each one has strengths and I am sure will continue to coexist. What I personally would love to see is CCP7 being the start of a much closer integration with Joomla and perhaps CCP8 being built completely on the Joomla Framework.

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#427 07-11-2009 04:46:02

Dave
Member
Registered: 07-05-2003
Posts: 11233

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

FrankJAG wrote:

Well it's pretty obvious you are going to cater to the majority which like you said is soon going to be a majority. Guess those of us who don't need or care about Joomla are not as important since we shall soon be a minority.

Every customer is important Frank.

FrankJAG wrote:

I am not too terribly happy about having to pay for XMods that should come with the initial price. Just because you think SEO is not necessary shouldn't mean were all wrong and don't need one!

I'm sorry you're not happy and it isn't "us" that don't think it's not necessary. The HD SEO XMOD in particular adds a level of complexity that most people simply don't want or need.  The basic SEO provided with CCP is enough for them and there are several examples of successful businesses here in the fora that use nothing more than that.

FrankJAG wrote:

I have to be frank (no pun intended) I am shopping around for another solution. I could care less about Joomla. I hope they come in droves as new customers, we definately feel alienated and most probably will not upgrade.

I'm really sorry you feel that way Frank but would encourage you to at least take a look at version 7 before you consider another solution.  In spite of all of the Joomla hype and talk there are a lot of things coming for the current customers too.

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#428 07-11-2009 06:21:43

NicheDev
Member
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 152

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

webmaster wrote:

ClickCartPro 7 is ready.

Can't you release it today then, Nick?  Lots of us work weekends...

Paul

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#429 07-11-2009 06:49:44

Dave
Member
Registered: 07-05-2003
Posts: 11233

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

He was speaking metaphorically Paul.

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#430 07-11-2009 09:12:15

NicheDev
Member
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 152

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Yes I know, Dave.  My reply was tongue-in-cheek  smile

Looking forward to at last making a proper start on my projects!

Paul

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#431 07-11-2009 09:24:43

webmaster
Administrator
From: York, PA
Registered: 04-20-2001
Posts: 19722
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

hdouglas:

Check out posts 303, 308, 310, 311, 314 and 323 in this thread.  I believe they answer every one of your questions concerning the Joomla! integration.  Basically, both systems install standalone then a component, three plugins and a bunch of modules are installed and configured in Joomla!, then the connector is turned on in ClickCartPro.  Both systems operate independently but communicate to provide (1) Full blown synchronous Single-Sign-On, (2) On-demand Joomla! template import into the ClickCartPro skin and (3) On-demand ClickCartPro skin widget import into Joomla! template.  Integrating the two once Joomla! and ClickCartPro are installed takes about five minutes.  After that you'll probably spend a lot of time afterward just starting at it not believing how well the whole integration was done and thinking how cool ClickCartPro looks working seamlessly with Joomla! (and visa versa).


Nick Hendler

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#432 07-11-2009 09:37:39

webmaster
Administrator
From: York, PA
Registered: 04-20-2001
Posts: 19722
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

hdouglas:

Also -

The big question is, will CCP7 support this and in building the integration have there been any core hacks to the Joomla side which will be an issue during upgrades?

There were no core hacks to Joomla! code.  The only code we touched in Joomla! was the code within the components, plugins and modules which we created.

Concerning user permissions and access levels, anytime a user exists - or is created - in Joomla!, and ClickCartPro needs to add that user to it's database, ClickCartPro adds the user as a 'basic' user.  Anytime a user exists - or is created - in ClickCartPro, and Joomla! needs to add that user to it's database, Joomla! adds the user as the default new user type defined in Joomla!.  After that, no matter what updates occur for the user in either system or both, the user's group remains constant within each system.  This means your account can have XYZ rights in Joomla! and ABC rights in ClickCartPro.  Changes using the management interface of one system to a user's group or permissions will affect that user in that system only.

Again though, how will this work with the update of Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 1.6?

We've developed this integration for Joomla! 1.5.  Once 1.6 is stable, we intend on releasing all the components, plugins and modules for that version as well.  If the Joomla! module within ClickCartPro needs to be updated, we'll release an update for that at the same time. If that needs to be done, we'll most likely provide a compatibility switch in ClickCartPro to allow users to select whether they're running Joomla! 1.5 or 1.6.

What I personally would love to see is CCP7 being the start of a much closer integration with Joomla and perhaps CCP8 being built completely on the Joomla Framework.

LOL.  I wouldn't hold my breath on that.


Nick Hendler

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#433 07-12-2009 03:23:25

hdouglas
Member
Registered: 06-12-2008
Posts: 17

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Thank you for your detailed reply, I await to see the finally relased product with even more excitement.

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#434 07-12-2009 17:06:27

jason
Member
Registered: 11-16-2008
Posts: 53

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

I've been watching this thread with interest and was just wondering if there is or will ever be a 'MAKE IT VERY EASY AND SIMPLE TO USE xmod' for the non-developers out there.

I myself am a non-developer/non-programmer who bought this cart thinking it would be very easy to manipulate and work with, using very little programming knowledge based on the marketing hype and the UK based website for clickcartpro 6 which makes it sound like its an absolute breeze to start selling online with this cart.

IN A NUTSHELL IT ISN'T.

It requires a depth of knowledge that most people.. ie..non-developers wouldn't have, not to mention that you must also be a web design guru who's second language has got to be CSS inorder to re-work the look and style of the flaming thing.

And finally if you require any help with postage..scripts  (what are they?) or anything else within the cart that isn't a defacto standard, then you have to pay for it via a custom script submission.

Sorry to sound slightly negative, but I spent a few hundred quid on this cart and have been on the look out for another since day one due to the enormous complexity of the damn thing.. (for me anyway).

Anyone else feel like this??

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#435 07-13-2009 03:27:09

makesachange
Member
From: UK
Registered: 02-24-2006
Posts: 253
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Jason,

Yes.  Both the website's description of the product and the telephone pre-sales about it were simply incorrect.  Unfortunately because there are so few people involved in this project, those who are writing the advertising are techies who don't understand the knowledge levels of those looking for shopping carts.

I started with V5.1 with the understanding that my good knowledge of HTML would be all I'd need to customise the cart exactly how I wanted it.  Turned out that it wasn't - and a lot of money was then handed over for other people to fix what I just couldn't do.

Since then I've got someone who is a database engineer and a programmer to do all the techie stuff for me.  If you can't afford this, CCP (at least up to V6) isn't the right cart.  That said, I don't know any others which may be other than perhaps a pre-hosted version of a cart through an ISP where you'd get no flexibility to speak of.

This isn't a critisism of CCP in any way.  It's clearly a great product.  But the marketing is simply wrong.


The Organic and Fair Trade Baby Boutique

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#436 07-13-2009 03:29:13

makesachange
Member
From: UK
Registered: 02-24-2006
Posts: 253
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Nick,

Batch shipping is clearly a necessity for those who have more than 2 or 3 orders a day, which one expects is most users.

Shame it's not incorporated as standard!


The Organic and Fair Trade Baby Boutique

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#437 07-13-2009 08:39:48

ncp
Member
From: Singapore
Registered: 12-04-2008
Posts: 168
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Jason,

While checking into the CCP V7 release state (the BIG day), I came to this last page with no BIG announcement as yet, but saw your post.

Let me give my 2 cents. I am like you, a non-programmer of html, although I was involved technically in computer programming many many years ago. My past experience did help me get along in CCP, but I think CCP can be used by anyone including you, with some effort put into learning the web stuff in general.

My traditional business took a hard hit end of last year till now, which affords me the time and determination to work on my web and now I can proudly says that the business cart is working according to my requirements and is little effort for me to proceed from here.

So you must have time to learn those things required to customize CCP to your business requirements. Point 1.

Throughout these period, I have found W3SCHOOL a wonderful tool to learn about anything you need to do with customising CCP. http://www.w3schools.com/default.asp. I treat it as a reference to get i want to accomplish. From there, I have also found many other tools and places where i can pick up a trick of two to make my web better (eg. a logo next to your URL in the browser, and a number of others...).

So, you have places to learn things you thought were difficult. The above site is very very key to people like you and I. Point 2.

CCP v6 organization in pages and functions are, to me, illogical in many ways. It requires one to get to using it everyday and use it deeply to know where or how to get things done. However, the forum here, with the effort of Dave, who does not look like requiring any sleep, and the many helpful users in CCP community, makes learning and finding out things so much less painful. I must emphasize that this is also one of the key strength of CCP - a working and active User Forum. Whenever i have something I don't know, I'll check or post a question here first.

So one should use this forum to get help. Even if it feels like a dumb question - you have nothing to loose by asking, and there is a great search function to locate the question key word - many people may have asked the same question before. Point 3(last).

I have done my research before jumping into CCP. I have also a rather good hosting service which has all the necessary technical stuff taken cared of for me without me ever hitting a serious installation issue. One thing I've checked with them before switching my hosting service is that CCP is supported.

CCP's claim is as good or bad as any product's claims, but I think CCP's claims are decent.

I hope V7 is going to be more suitable for people like you and I.

Rgds,
Raymond, ncp


We are how we wire our brains.

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#438 07-13-2009 09:05:42

wyattea
Member
Registered: 01-07-2006
Posts: 1650

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Here's an analogy. CCP is like Microsoft Word. If all you want to do is type sentence and print, fine, it's pretty easy, but if you want to change fonts, indent margins, add line art (WordArt), incorporate pictures, etc., you have to KNOW some stuff or LEARN some stuff. If you want to get really fancy, and do mail merging and insert tables, or bullets, then you have to learn some more.

It's very naive to think that ANY cart will let you customize it without knowing html/css or at least be able to learn it as you go. Because if it's THAT easy, then they basically have it setup as templates, and if you don't have to do or know much to 'customize' it, then neither does anyone else using the cart so your cart will essentially look/work just like a lot of other people. That's why it's easy to immediately identify an 'OSCommerce' website or other certain cart websites. Even when customized, they still look the same.

My 2 cents.

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#439 07-13-2009 09:05:44

webmaster
Administrator
From: York, PA
Registered: 04-20-2001
Posts: 19722
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

07/13/2009: ClickCartPro 7 will release tonight between 8:00 and 10:00 PM ET.


Nick Hendler

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#440 07-13-2009 09:57:31

alicia
Member
Registered: 01-05-2009
Posts: 88

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

thanks for the update Nick.... this is exciting...

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#441 07-13-2009 11:02:33

makesachange
Member
From: UK
Registered: 02-24-2006
Posts: 253
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

wyattea wrote:

It's very naive to think that ANY cart will let you customize it without knowing html/css or at least be able to learn it as you go.

I was told that all I'd need to know is HTML.  This clearly is untrue.

Doesn't mattter though, it is what it is and I'm pleased with it.


The Organic and Fair Trade Baby Boutique

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#442 07-13-2009 11:04:34

makesachange
Member
From: UK
Registered: 02-24-2006
Posts: 253
Website

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

ncp wrote:

However, the forum here, with the effort of Dave, who does not look like requiring any sleep,

Yeah, second a BIG thank you to Dave et al for all the help I've had over the past 4 years or so.

smile


The Organic and Fair Trade Baby Boutique

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#443 07-13-2009 11:14:25

Dave
Member
Registered: 07-05-2003
Posts: 11233

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

makesachange wrote:

I was told that all I'd need to know is HTML.  This clearly is untrue.

Very strictly speaking that is really all you need AS LONG AS you use one of the default skins and don't want to change anything at all but simply add products.

I'll get crucified for saying this I'm sure but a business owner needs to decide if they want to focus on their business and pay someone for their web work or run their business AND do their web work too.  There isn't a e-commerce solution available that doesn't require work.

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#444 07-13-2009 15:09:13

jason
Member
Registered: 11-16-2008
Posts: 53

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Thankyou for your responses to my little rant.

I have managed to customise the cart in a fashion without having to pay someone (as of yet), and to be fair to ccp and the many users of this forum, Some of the posts have been invaluable to me in order to get as far as I have to date.

I have no idea or understanding of php or databases and very very little html/css experience but have so far managed to make certain changes from the standard skins and a pre paid zipskin template.

What would make this a near perfect piece of software/product would be some form of comprehensive user manual focusing on the ins and outs of the application. Precise in depth tutorials on how to customise this software would be a fantastic solution for us mere mortals, which I feel would go a long way to maybe persuade someone who might be just thinking about it but are not too sure based on the lack of decent literature, to someone saying ..Yeah...this is brilliant..lets go with it.

There are many books out there written for many different types of software...photoshop/dreamweaver and various flavours of windows for example... with all the indepth tutorials you would need. Now I for one would gladly pay a fee for a book which helped me work with ccp.

After all the hard work that goes into designing and producing a cart like this, surely it would be an absolute breeze to produce an in depth book on how to use it and bundle it with the cart for an additional fee. People are making money out of this product via the likes of zip-skins etc, etc so why not take the onus and produce a book showing you how to customise the cart and earn from it at the same time.

Note to zip skins...As opposed to charging 50-60 a skin and maybe creating an extra 10% business for yourself. Why not create a User guide or book on how to do this. And make 30 a book...note book..not pdf...I'm sure you'll sell plenty more than you do skins...

Seems daft not to really.


Ps...

Batch shipping should be standard and I would say is CRUCIAL to most if not all owners of a shopping cart, also postage variables (certainly for the uk) seems to be one of the big issues I've noticed with this product.


Regards

Jason

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#445 07-13-2009 15:35:11

NicheDev
Member
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 152

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

I second what Jason suggests regarding a decent "how to modify CCP in easy-to-understand steps" book. For me a PDF would be fine.

That would turn CCP from being something aimed at coders, to something we "mere mortals" could easily use and modify to suit our needs.

Examples:
1. How to change the number of columns on a page
2. How to change the site colours, line widths and fonts
3. How to remove unwanted aspects of the layout (e.g. "best sellers" etc.)

Basically, treat us like raw newbies. We won't mind. The experienced guys won't need this level of help anyway.

I'll bet quite a few customers buy CCP based on the implied "easy to use straight out of the box" badge, but are then daunted by the learning curve and end up buying something less capable but easier to configure.

Paul

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#446 07-13-2009 15:45:24

NicheDev
Member
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 152

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

"The Dummies Guide to ClickCartPro 7". It doesn't even have to look pretty - simple rough notes in Word docs will do fine.

Please consider it, Nick and Nigel!

Don't over-estimate the knowledge of some (many?) of us - some of us need help!
(take that however you like  smile  )

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#447 07-13-2009 15:53:49

Dave
Member
Registered: 07-05-2003
Posts: 11233

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

NicheDev wrote:

Examples:
1. How to change the number of columns on a page
2. How to change the site colours, line widths and fonts
3. How to remove unwanted aspects of the layout (e.g. "best sellers" etc.)

I certainly appreciate where you're coming from and what you're asking for but things like the first two items on your list are purely HTML/CSS questions and gosh knows there are millions of pages out there that already cover those subjects in great depth.

As someone mentioned earlier today  has tutorials and in depth references for just about everything and if you get stuck you may ask CCP specific questions here or more general questions at .  Both of those sites are high on my bookmark list and I use them frequently.  One never stops learning when it comes to web stuff believe me.

For the third thing on your list that was a frequently asked question and is specifically addressed in the  along with a number of other commonly asked things regarding how to change the look and feel of a site.

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#448 07-13-2009 16:05:31

NicheDev
Member
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 152

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

Dave wrote:

things like the first two items on your list are purely HTML/CSS questions and gosh knows there are millions of pages out there that already cover those subjects in great depth.

I truly appreciate and understand that, but for those like me who will spend time learning if we really have to but would prefer just to throw a few switches to achieve the look we want, a set of simple instructions would be just great. I don't want to impress anyone with clever coding or innovative features, I just want a site that works well and looks the way I want it to. But I don't want the cloned look of OSCommerce etc. I chose CCP for many reasons, not least that I found lots of sites using it that didn't all look the same.

The alternative is to engage a designer/programmer to give me what I want whilst I spend my time running the business. Anyone interested?

Paul

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#449 07-13-2009 16:26:12

jason
Member
Registered: 11-16-2008
Posts: 53

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

I don't want to sound too pragmatic (if thats the  right word to use..lol) but one thing that I would really like would be the ability to view a tutorial on how to change the default ccp skin/skins, based on step by step guides.

Or to put it another way... View a tutorial taking the default skin and through step by step guides using this skin and the cart as a whole show the progress of changing this skin to something really nice. Very much like a Haynes manual of skin design and deployment.

Is that too much to ask.

I can use the online css tutorials all day long, but this isn't going to give me working practical knowledge of how to implament this into ccp.

Is it really that difficult to produce a step by step guide to designing a new skin using css and certain html examples and of course ccp as the example.

Once us noobs get the jist of how it should be done we can revert to all the online css/html/js help that is available - confident we are attacking this in the right way.

Purchasing the cart is one thing, struggling to make it look nice is another. Using it in its default state isn't adequate enough for me, although it is functionally good enough to work as is, it doesn't look professional enough in my eyes.

So basically I'm left with this scenario

Do I spend anywhere from 3k-5k in getting it created by a web professional from scratch.
Do I buy this cart at a few hundred quid and then get a web professional to spruce it up to a nice standard at a cost of 3k-5k.

Or ...

Do you guys create a Haynes manual for ccp skin design and charge 100 bux?

The latter for the majority of your customers would be welcomed even at that price I reckon..lol

Last edited by jason (07-13-2009 16:43:29)

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#450 07-13-2009 16:36:22

121NetDesign
Member
From: Surrey, UK
Registered: 05-10-2007
Posts: 427

Re: ClickCartPro 7 - Initial Thread From CCP6 Forum

webmaster wrote:

07/13/2009: ClickCartPro 7 will release tonight between 8:00 and 10:00 PM ET.

Boooo! Thats midnight and 2am here in the UK. yikes


Tommy Lee

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